Lance McWhorter: Rhythm, Fire & Redemption

0:00 Thank you, Chef. Thank you. That was awesome. And thank you. That was a lot of fun. Yeah.
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I was I was hoping to get the only segue that I missed out and there was I was I was talking about the song that changed my life, but we didn’t get any music
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that in in that level, but uh what is it?
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You’re in Minneapolis. You’re in Minneapolis now, right? Absolutely.
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Yeah. So, like Minneapolis is one of my favorite hip-hop scenes. You know, Slug and Ant and Brother Ali and Prof and Y.
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Um, so, so brother, brother Ali, Uncle Sam, Goddamn is the song that changed my life as a as a white man.
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Welcome to the United States, land of the thief, home of the slave. Bloodshed, genocide, rape, and fraud written to the pages of the law. Good lord.
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So, so talk to me. Talk to me about the Brother Ali song. Talk to me about Yeah, man. Have you Have you Have you got into him much? Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Uh, no. Uncle Sam. Goddamn. I mean, like when when uh that whole track is just and I play it for everybody, like it’s just one of
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those you you want you want to know where my head’s at, this is where my head’s at, you know? It’s like um you know, I was raised
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not not good. You know, I was raised by I mean, I was raised by loving good people. My grandmother wasn’t a very
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sweet, loving person, but she was racist as [ __ ] I mean, think about it. She was born in, you know, the 19s or 1920 or whatever,
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Jim Crow South. like um I I offer no excuse to uh being molded into your
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environment, but I mean even Bruce Lee said, you know, it’s like you’re like water, man. You get poured into the glass. It’s right. Right. Exactly.
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You’re there, you know. It’s like uh but I mean me going into the military at age 17 and and being thrust into these you know multi-racial
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uh units and and and peer groups and things like that. It changed everything, you know, and it’s just um
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a big part of and and this the the new project that I’m working on now is called the sins of our grandmothers
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and uh and it it’s really kind of deep diving into that you know having you know it’s not about mom because we didn’t listen to mom like we didn’t
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listen to dad like but but grandma we listen to grandma like that was and and I know she wasn’t trying to do it out of spite and like in seeds I haven’t
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kind touched on that that innocent racism, you know, that uh um and I know from from a black man’s point
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of view that may be just like an idiotic statement, you know, but from a from a white dude, white southern dude’s point of view, it’s like, man, this this [ __ ]2:34
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was we were born into it, but we’re trying to change that.
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It’s just a fluid chef. I’m here to remind y’all I’m sick with it. My name is
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Simple and I’m all about my paper. The bacon chitter and pain. I got these lanes running for the border. The talented Mr. Porter. Keep it flowing like it’s here. There we go.
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Is it him and his friend? He ain’t special just cuz he’s on TV.
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Everybody’s hands up acting like they know.
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[Music]3:17
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Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome everybody to another episode of the Taste Music Here Food Podcast Show. I am
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your host Ed Porter and this is the destination for food, music, and culture and how they all connect. Today we have
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an amazing guest. Um, a a true patriot
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slash uh this this guy here is uh definitely
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uh a living testament to follow your heart and dreams. Period. So, I’m gonna
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attempt to pay this gentleman the flowers he so greatly deserves with this intro. So, here we go. Today’s guest has
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lived nine lives before most people even think of a second act. He’s been a soldier, a firefighter, a bodyguard, a
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musician, and now one of the boldest culinary voices in East Texas. From the battlefield to the back of the kitchen,
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from washing dishes at 13 to earning a wine spectator award, this man has turned grit into gastronomy. As his
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restaurant heritage east and speak easy, the plaid rabbit, he’s rewriting what southern food means. Mixing global
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influence with deep rooted East Texas soul.
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We’re talking legacy, flavor, and finding your rhythm in the chaos of life and cuisine. Please welcome an Army and
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Navy veteran, the Prince of Pork himself, Chef Lance McWater.
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What is up, dude? That That was uh all the hair standing up on my arms right now. That guy is cool.
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I want to hang with that guy.
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He’s skinny, though. Like, I feel like I’m so much fatter and older now, you know? First and foremost, thank you for your service. Um Oh, yeah. My pleasure, man.
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I don’t uh I don’t think enough uh these days enough reverence goes into the men
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and women uh in in the military. I’ve had some family members obviously that have served. Um I thought about it for a while, you know, almost got sucked and
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actually I remember the newspaper ad, it was uh uh come cook, see the world, and then I showed up. It said the Navy recruiting office. I gingerely walked
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right past that [ __ ] So, um, you didn’t miss much. I mean, like traveling around to places was really
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cool, but the the the long long weeks and days of bobbing around in the ocean, you know, I eventually did that. I worked on
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cruise ships, so I I I got my uh I I did it, you know. I I’m guessing the benefits in the Navy were way better.
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So, it is what it is. Um, first of Thank Thank you for being here, too. This is um something that we we we talked about a little while ago and we
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I’m glad we finally got to make it happen.
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So, let’s jump right in, man. So, again, like I said in the intro, you’ve you’ve lived about five different lives. Um
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you know, and then you came back to to actually making food your calling card.
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Um right. What was there a meal or was there an instance that snapped in your
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head that this was going to be your voice?
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Yeah. Um kind of. It’s uh it’s kind of a you know cooking was always my jam. I always loved it. you know, uh, you know,
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growing up, I worked in restaurants cuz I was kind of a in and out of homelessness kid and, uh, you know, uh, in and out of trouble and every time
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that I wasn’t in trouble, I didn’t have a secure place to stay. And so it started out as as just a paycheck and and food. You know, you always had food
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if you were working at a restaurant. And uh, so started young and then went in the military and and and kept cooking. You know, I got I was uh
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uh when I when I went into the Navy, I was stationed in Hawaii. So, I mean, you know, talk about a a food mecca, you the seafood, and I was friends with chefs
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and I was friends with bartenders and commercial fishermen and, you know, go down to the pier with a 12-pack of beer and somebody’s pulling, you know, a
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first mate’s pulling fresh ono off the boat. We’re cutting chunks of tail out of it and uh sitting there on the pier and and food was just always so cool,
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you know. And then like uh uh when I got out and I was firefighter, that was a huge part of station life was cooking.
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And uh early on in my career when I was still a probationary firefighter, it’s like uh you don’t have a bid station. So
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they just drove you around, you know, and and everybody started kind of passing it around that, hey man, this kid can cook, you know. So I started
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getting requests for like all the bougie stations for them to put me there. And but yeah, I mean one day I was sitting in Iraq years later. Um, I’d gone back
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over as a high threat security contractor working for the State Department, working for the Department of Defense, and we were running missions out and around Iraq and uh, in Baghdad.
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And I just remember we were running these, you know, like man, I I don’t even know what I could say about him other than it involved a
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lot of taxpayer money. Um, and I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that old movie Tombstone, you know, but when Doc Holliday shoots Johnny Ringo and he
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pulls the badge off and he puts it on Johnny Ringo’s chest and pats it and he goes, “My hypocrisy only goes so far, you know?” And I was kind of
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like I kind of hit that moment, you know? Yeah.
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And uh I’m pushing 40 years old and I’m like, I don’t want to do this anymore, you know? Like what do I want to do?
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I want to cook. So, you know, I took like a I don’t know hundred and some odd thousand a year pay cut and went to work as a line cook at age 40.
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Yeah. Yeah. Listen, first off, real life Jason Bourne is a
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it’s crazy. Crazy words.
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All right. So, Army, Navy, Y, firefighter, yep.
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Securities expert, y contracted. Um, speak to me about the parallels or or
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the the the different things that actually suited you well from that chaos to the chaos of the kitchen because I’m
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pretty sure and you probably know this better than I do. Um, there’s I know there’s there’s a chaos
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in a restaurant. There’s got to be some sort of uh things that you are better
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suited at to be able to deal with those stresses. Again, we’re not curing cancer. It’s not heart surgery, but it
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is a stressful situation. Obviously, not as stressful as being anywhere in a bunker somewhere, you know, I mean, it it’s it’s it’s one of those
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that Yeah, there there’s plenty of similarities. And I mean that’s kind of where the whole basis of, you know, Essafier and the brigade and the military hierarchal structure of of
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kitchens down to the uniform, you know.
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Yeah. I mean that that’s that’s all that’s where it all comes from because it works. It works in in uh you know the peak of stressful activity and
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situations and it’s just you know the you know bunch of years back when I filmed my chopped episode when they
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released that season they uh in in the commercial throughout the whole season they had a a voice blurb of mine where I
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go it’s hot it’s fast it’s loud you know it’s like it’s there’s and that was like the the little blurb in all the commercials and and it really is you know it’s hot
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it’s fast it’s loud it’s crazy It’s madness sometimes and a lot of people don’t understand the uh the stresses of that, you know,
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especially in in an upscale um type of environment where you’re really you’re not just trying to crank food out, but you’re trying to crank
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special food out presented in a special manner and you know and and keep that that
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um that consistency up from dish to dish while you know everything’s on fire behind you. So, I mean, it’s it’s it’s
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seamless integration. And that was kind of, you know, um like the chop thing. I I really didn’t want to go on.
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Um I didn’t want to be like a game show cook or anything like that, but my wife was like, you know, you’re always talking about, you know, how well suited
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veterans are for the kitchen? She goes, “What better platform for you to tell people that?” You know, and I’m like, “You’re right.” you know, it’s uh so
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that was kind of the whole purpose of doing that is that I really just wanted to inspire other veterans to get out of their heads because I mean when when I
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came back from Iraq and started cooking the first six eight months I didn’t know I was like I don’t know if this is for me you
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know and I kind of gave it up for a sec and um and put myself in a bottle and and got in bad headsp space you know
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like so many of us veterans do you know the 22 a day that that un alive themselves and and I several occasions
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almost became one of them, you know, and then uh a chef friend of mine, uh Sydney Cook, remarkable chef, uh came up the
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New Orleans scene and then we were in the Hill Country together here in Texas and she came over to my house one day and she goes, “Hey, I’m the executive
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chef of this new restaurant.” She goes, “You’re going to be my chef to cuisine whether you like it or not.
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This is what you need to do.” And uh so I kind of feel like me going on Chopped and kind of telling veterans that this
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is a very viable thing for you to do was kind of continuing that uh that that
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act of grace got from Chef Sydney that that saved my life.
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Absolutely. And 22 a day is that that’s insane to really think to really wrap your head around that. That’s it’s
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insane. And that’s a again uh lack of uh acknowledgement you know as a society.
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Um that’s that’s lack of mental health care. I mean that’s insane.
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You know it is uh you know out here anywhere really. I mean there’s a lack of mental health professionals. There’s a lack of of
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mental health uh systems and infrastructure. And I mean I know out here with you know I’ve got I’m a poor cook still. You know, it’s like I’ve got
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ACA insurance, which isn’t bad, but you know, I know that the waiting list for mental health here is, you know, 12 to 18 months just to go see a therapist.
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It’s the wraparound service is not much better.
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Yeah. Wraparound services needs to be changed. Um, you’ve been quoted as saying that restaurants are, you know, home for wayward kids.
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Yeah.
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And now, absolutely, man.
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And I know this. Well, it’s it’s it’s the God’s honest truth. What is your philosophy today as being a chef and a
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leader and you’re also leading other wayward kids, you know, in the kitchen?
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How how what’s your approach to that?
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I think just being really honest, you know, and uh and and setting the proper expectations for um you know, as a leader, as a chef, as a business owner.
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you know, the the first couple of years that I was open when it was still culture, it was uh it was tough because I was coming out of these Dallas
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kitchens that were just, you know, crazy good. I mean, now they’re all, you know, Michelin Dow back then. They were James Beard Nods and Food and Wine, best new chefs and things like that.
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And uh, you know, I came from this environment in a city that had incredible driven talent, you know, and uh, there
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was a row of people that were lined up to try and get jobs in these places, you know. So when when I moved out of Dallas and came out here and opened up my own
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spot, I had those expectations of of working around people like that, uh, these driven and just, you know, hyperfocused and and the people that are
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willing to go in there and churn 80 hours a week for, you know, not a lot of money because we can’t afford it. Yeah.
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Chef own joints. And uh, you know, different mindset. Different mindset.
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Yeah. I mean, like after a year or so, I remember my wife just stopped me. She goes, she goes, “Lance, like you can’t
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expect these people to be you.” Yeah.
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And I went, you know, I get that. I then that’s so it’s usually the women in your life that did it. My wife, my wife had the same.
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She’s spot on correct, you know, and and so I mean I think to answer your question is it’s like first you have to
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realize that you have to realize what you want to do may not be what a what you’re able to do. You know, it’s like I
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want to cook to this level. Well, you know what? You can’t force people to go along with that. You have to inspire them to attain that same level of of
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dedication and and and pride and and uh focus and sense of urgency.
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You have to be able to inspire them to do that, you know. It’s so so it’s not like this instant thing, you know, where you just like I’m going to hang the
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shingle up and, you know, screw some medicine bulbs into the light fixtures and then bam, you know, it’s like we’re we, you know, it’s it’s like watching burnt, you know, it’s like next thing
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you know, Michelin guides there and yeah, oh boy, I’m really glad that, you know, my girlfriend brought in this old, you know, Anova suvid head, you know, like
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I think uh for you though uh and most I think Most chefs, most creatives um
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don’t really think about their journey as the motivational tool. So really, honestly, if you wanted to truly
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motivate a young culinarian, tell them your story. You kicked off your you kicked off your career at at the the tender age of 39, right? And so
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and absolutely, anybody can do it.
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And so the fact is what you but you what you’re going to need an intensive amount of of of dedication.
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um and sign up to be a forever student and absolutely put your head down and and you gota grind like there’s there’s there’s no
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it’s like say what you want about steroids and all that other [ __ ] right?
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But here’s here’s the other part of that.
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They still got to lift the weights, right? There’s no there’s no secrets.
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There’s no other there’s no other way to do it. There’s there’s no other way to do it. You still got to do the work. And you cannot be upset about the results
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you didn’t get from the work you didn’t do. And I think more so today than than ever the youth need that like because
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there’s so many there’s so many they’re so impatient, right? Like they don’t they don’t have they don’t watch commercials like like it’s everything is
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everything is you know fasttrack for them. Everything is fast track. Like I remember you know they got to wait.
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You got to wait for you know for the show to come back on. But now you can skip pretty much everything except life. You cannot skip. There’s no
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shortcuts. There’s no shortcuts. Um, and the literally the only thing I would add to that is is is a huge dose of humility.
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Absolutely.
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Um, you know, just being able to strip the ego from the self and from the food and from the the walls and the
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and the glassear and whatever, you know, is is it’s really important that you go into whatever situation you’re doing
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with a lot of humility and and a lot of, you know, I’m not the best cook in the world. I’m not the the best chef. I’m not the best leader. I’m not the best
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friend, the best whatever, you know, because that’s where you set up your path to to learning and really being able to function as a leader is is
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understanding your own weaknesses, how you overcome them from a day-to-day uh standpoint and and how you still manage
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to wade through it all and and get done the things that need to get done because it ends with you. You know, it’s like
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when you when you own that place, it is yours. It is. There is no, you know, throwing your hands up in the air and going, I don’t know what to do with leg.
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Absolutely. Fish fish stinks from the head.
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That’s just what it is. All right. Right about now, we’re going to play a little game called ones gota go.
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All right, let’s do it.
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Okay, so in this I’m going to give you three options of a question. You got to just pick one to eliminate. Very simple.
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Very simple. All right. So easy.
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This one. Which track leaves the kitchen playlist for you? All right. Princess Purple Rain,
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Metallica’s Inter Sandman, or Outcast So Fresh So Clean.
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Was So Fresh So Clean by a mile. That’s I’m a head I’m a hip-hop head, man. That’s That’s my music.
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Oh, no, no, no. When Which one got to go? Oh, which one got to go?
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Oh, yeah. See, you thought it was that easy. Sandman. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a Sandman.
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Okay. All right. Cool. Cool. Sandman’s got to go. Prince is the goat of of all music. Understood.
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Of all time. So, yeah. No.
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So, I got to also preface this that you’re also a musician, too. So, yeah.
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Yeah. So, that’s Yeah. I know I didn’t list that in the in the uh the the the the epitth of of stuff that you did, but you’re also a musician. All right.
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Yeah.
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What sound could you live without? the sizzle of cast iron, the pop of vinyl, or the hum of a service at full throttle.
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They’re all sweet sounds to me.
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I think I’ I would have to get rid of hum of service. Like because that’s kind of the only one to me that’s droning.
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The sizzle sizzle of cast iron is like like the hum of service kind of drags time out. Yeah.
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You know, the sizzle of cast iron is kind of like, “All right, let’s go.” you know, now it’s it’s starting. Some fire’s going to spit up and the pop of vinyl is something great to come, you
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know. I mean, that’s like when that, you know, that Audio Technica needle hits the hits the hits the record. It’s just like you get that. Absolutely. Oh, there’s no sweet sound.
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And then what a lot of people don’t understand that’s not in the industry. A lot of the cooking that we do is by sound, sound, feel, and touch. So, like
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we we know certain things are are getting close to a certain point based on how, you know, audibly they sound. All right.
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Okay. Which East Texas flavor could you live without? No love lost. Pittsburgh
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peaches, noonday sweet onions, or homegrown okra from Tyler?
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Oh, man. Um Ah, yeah, I know.
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I would give like if I give up noonday onions, I can get regular ass onions, right? Yeah, but they don’t taste the same.
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Yeah, I know. But if I had to give up one of those, it would it would be noonday onions. Although noonday onions are dope, man. Like they’re really amazing. They’re [ __ ] amazing. Yeah.
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And those peaches are Yeah. non-negotiable. Yeah.
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I’ I’ve I’ve got a I’ve got all my peaches come from a farm in Winona. Oh, cool. And uh which so it’s just north of here.
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Not quite as far as Pittsburgh, but their peaches are killer, too. Just absolutely amazing. And the guy grows like uh the uh oh, what do you call it?
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The uh like the THCA. Oh, yeah.
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You know, so he’s got a whole other farm that’s not peaches. It’s it’s pretty cool to go explore in those green houses. Understood. Understood. Okay. All right.
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That that that has been one’s got to go.
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All right. So, you said you’ve gone through because you’re a music guy, right?
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And you said everything in your restaurant is pretty much set to a soundtrack. like your your your
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whole approach to your whole ecosystem is pretty much set to music of some sort. Um, at least at least internally, right?
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What would you say the kitchen soundtrack would be for your state of flow from where you are now to
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where you are when you started? Because you went through a restaurant. You did a whole revamp of your restaurant.
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Yeah. Yeah. Did a complete concept shift after year five. Like I was just like And you were It’s time. And you were a thriving restaurant that did that. So it was it was great.
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And so there was nothing wrong with it. Was not broke. Had to fix it, you know.
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So what would you say from then to now would be that narrating soundtrack for for your your restaurant concept?
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Well, it’s uh it’s open kitchen, you know. So I mean it’s whatever they’re listening to in the dining room is what we listen to in the kitchen. So, I mean, it’s uh Oh, it’s usually a little louder.
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Okay. So, yeah, it’s usually a little louder. So, I mean, it’s a true soundtrack. Like, like I play what I what I want to listen to. And uh you know, uh all my employees
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will tell you that the quickest way to get fired is to put country on my radio.
23:43
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Um like that’s it. That’s a deal breaker. Like you’re like like Padma walks in from the dish pit and like please take your knives and come. You
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know the uh Okay. So, what is what is a what is a a typical Thursday night sound like?
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Um, now, you know, like during the culture years, it was like I was a little more kind of abrasive and a little more, I don’t know, maybe egocentric or something like that when
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it came to the environment. So, I would play a lot of, you know, like ’90s hip-hop, like that’s Yeah, that’s my stuff, you know. And uh so I
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would try and kind of keep it as clean as possible, but I mean yeah, you know, it was it was still it was still playing 90s, you know, like uh
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more more uh east coast than west. And uh but now since I made the switch, it’s like I kind of upscaled it a little bit.
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So, it’s uh you know, a little more classy and and uh you I’m a little older and a little wiser and so now it’s kind of like
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um I kind of do a lot more trip hop now, you know, like you kind of go back into the into the 90s trip hop and get into uh
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Oh, man. Um like Portoris Head, you know, like just kind of vibby.
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I get I think I think that’s awesome.
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And we talked before about and we’re going to get into a little more about why the switching to change um and all those things come about.
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When you’re building flavor, would you say that currently at Heritage
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you’re composing your your your food in the all allaround
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vibe of the the the experience more? So like is it is it is it more jazz? Is it more improvisational?
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Is it uh more more feeling driven? more about the rhythm. What What is the What
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is the pulse of why? It’s it’s kind of all of those things.
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And uh you know, it it’s really spontaneous, but it’s really kind of memory driven from the few childhood memories that I have that were good.
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Um you know, uh cooking with my grandmother and my great-grandmother. Um just so so the vibe when we’re creating something new is really improvisational.
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It’s like I’ll have a farmer say I have this or or I just see a product and I’m like I want to I’m going to do something with this, you know, or like right now
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it’s fall and I haven’t made a post with this dish yet, but you know, I just told my sue chef Dylan Ston, I was just like, Dylan, um I kind of had this idea like
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26 minutes, 19 seconds
delicata squash is coming up and I want to hollow one out and stuff it with something, you know, and and usually it’s a oneand done like like we’ll just come up with something and
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26 minutes, 27 seconds
and and just throw it on the menu like it there’s we don’t do uh a a lot of development for for dishes. It’s like I
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kind of feel like when when you when you get into that just, you know, you see, you know, Grant Ackets with the notepad and the
26:42
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whiteboard and, you know, they’re breaking things down to the like I I can’t do that, you know. It’s like I don’t think I have the available RAM left in my head.
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Um, you know, it’s been been bonked on it too many times. But it’s uh, you know, it’s just very improvisational. So, I mean it’s and to
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me that’s that’s you know indicative of cooking from the heart and that’s you know kind of emulating like grandma’s cooking and and so uh you know we did this delicata
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squash and and this was the only one that in recent history that we changed something in cuz originally I’m like oh I’ve got these lentils that have been laying around. I’m going stuff it with lentils and,
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you know, some Benton’s, you know, aged ham.
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27 minutes, 19 seconds
And I’m doing a uh an aliggo out of uh Anson Mills uh Johnny Redcorn
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grits and griier. So, you know, like the traditional potato aliggo where you’re, you know, scooping the cheese out of the pot tableside. I mean, we’re doing that
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with grits and griier. And, uh, we wound up stuffing it with ferro verie instead.
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So, it’s just uh, you know, uh, yeah, I’m not trying to be hungry. It’s a wild dish. I’m not trying to be hungry, but you you you you are
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hellbent. You’re hellbent on me to be hungry.
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Like like it’s it turned out really good. Like I was surprised and uh Sounds extremely good. All right, so let’s let’s talk about why the switch.
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Why did you decide after year five to switch from culture to heritage?
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It was uh it was a long time coming, man. I mean, it it’s uh you know, Culture ETX, which is, you know, Culture East Texas. And when when I first opened
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up, you know, I think one of the first reviews that I ever got, it was like some guy like, “Boy, I don’t know what this guy’s talking about.” He goes, “This sure ain’t ETX culture. You know,
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this this isn’t East Texas culture. This is something else.” And I’m like, “Kind of exactly, man. Like, I’m kind of bringing some other stuff and smashing it together.” like you know the point
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you um but it really was it was a culture was a mashup of all the places that I
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traveled um and I’ve been to like 40some countries and I’ve never stepped foot in Europe or the UK. So it’s all of mine
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have been Middle East, Far East, you know, uh Pacific Rim, Central and South America, like all these really vibrant flavors. So,
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um, a lot of Middle Eastern influence went into cultures food because I lived there for years, you know, and, uh,
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um, it just kind of I won’t say it got old, but it’s just there was some, it
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wasn’t my story, you know, and I think it’s like when when you hit that point as a chef and like when you start really getting creative and you start getting into your jam and you always hear these
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like, you know, uh, three star Michelin dudes, you know, you always hear Keller and and and, you know, all these guys going, you know, it’s it’s about telling
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your story, man. It’s like it’s not about, you know, you know, uh was it a Marco Pierre White said, you know, it’s not about, you know, putting dots and Yeah.
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lines on a plate, you know. It’s about, you know, treating treating the food.
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Mother Nature is the true artist, you know, and it’s just uh I kind of got into that vibe and and we were coming up on the fifth year anniversary.
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Um which was August of last year and I was kind of I won’t say I was kind of burned out, maybe a little, but I was
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just like, dude, it’s so expensive to to do this restaurant. Like it’s you can see in that video that’s playing now, it’s like it’s so small. I have 10
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tables inside. had to have six patio tables that I’m lucky to fill, you know, except a few times a year because of weather. Mhm.
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And uh I’m like, I could turn this place into a grilled cheese sandwich restaurant, you
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know, with a speak easy bar in the back and make a thousand times more money than I make now. you know, it’s like uh
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I I just I kind of thought about going that route, you know, and just kind of just I that’s not really selling out, but I mean it’s just kind of
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a smart business decision, I guess, you know, and uh but you know, be me being
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me, I can’t have that. So, um you know, there was a there was a lot of buzz last year. I mean, you know, there
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was there was people that were reaching out that that kind of built me back up and I just went, “All right, cool.” I’m like, I announced we’re going to
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completely change the whole thing. And uh we did the decor, the paint, the ceiling, the you know, we went from QRS
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to regular menus. And um just went this East Texas ccentric food. And to me,
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that was like that was my that was my family story. you know, the family that I had that the summers that I remember as a kid were in Athens, which is right next door to Tyler.
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Um, and this was just always home, you know, this was always the taste of home.
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It’s my earliest memories of cooking were in my great-grandmother’s farmhouse here in Athens.
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And and I think it’s just my story found me, right? You know, eventually, you know, and and I found myself really wanting to
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explore local ingredients and explore those dishes that were so simple, right? And trying to elevate those.
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Gotcha. So in in doing that um and again uh you know I was fortunate enough to to
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read your your essay seeds um while you were on this this this journey
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to really dig deep into you know the the foods that you find the most comforting and and and near and dear to your heart.
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talk to me about, you know, that discovery and what what led you to to really um decide to be a beacon of light
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and and one of just spreading information. Um because the one thing I think as even as culinarians, most most
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of us are not too ingrained in to the history and knowledge of even the things that we touch on a daily basis or know
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the true origins. So yeah, man. That was kind of like a collaboration between my old life because I was I was usually like the intel guy on our teams when I was in in
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Iraq. So I was always doing all, you know, research and the mapping and this and that.
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Jason, no, not that kind of intel. Like I mean like the boring stuff, you know, sitting in front of a computer in in some nerdy office somewhere.
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But I mean I always loved, you know, history and research and uh and writing.
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I love to write, but you know, um it’s just tough for me to get my brain to be quiet long enough to put thoughts on paper. Um so, uh yeah, that the essay
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that that you’re mentioning, it’s called Seeds. Um and it’s like a chef’s journey to discover the roots of East Texas cuisine. And uh um
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there’s a lot that went on there. It’s uh we had just done Heritage. We’ve been going for a few months and it was really going well. And uh out in Atlanta,
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Georgia, they had uh it was like a writer’s conference uh kind of uh media mission uh where they had invited uh the
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the Texas visitors board to select five cities from the state and then they uh
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selected a chef from each one of those cities to go out and represent their region. And they tried to get, you know, really distinct regions and East Texas
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34 minutes
is definitely that. It is so completely opposite to the rest of Texas’s food.
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Um, but you know, there was like like uh God, Lance was out there from Fredericksburg, Lake Barbecue, uh, Chef Nicola Black from San Antonio who’s
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absolutely amazing. Um, it it was a good time, you know, and uh, but I was on my way out there and I knew it was going to be like a fivestation kind of round
34:23
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table. You’d have a group of four or five food writers or travel riders that would go from station to station. So, I knew I had to give a pitch like five different times. And I was like, man, I
34:32
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don’t I I made like the smoked uh it’s like smoked and then beer braised uh lamb shoulder with red beans and rice.
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Like, it’s this really kind of epic sleeper dish that’s on the menu.
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And I was going to make that, but I didn’t want to go out there and just be like, “All right, here’s a bowl of red beans and rice.” Because that’s what we eat here, you know? So, it was like um
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so we we just drove out, you know. Um me and the and the the visit Tyler lady at the time, her name’s was uh Diane Ba.
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And we just drove out because we’re just like, man, it’s only, you know, 9 hours, 10 hours. And by the time you mess with the restaurant and food and I or with
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the with food and the airport and, you know, trying to fly and get in and out and then repeat, I’m like, it’s easier just to drive, you know. And uh
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so we’re driving out there and this thought hits me of of all right, what can I do? And I’m like, I’m going to make just like a little slideshow on my
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iPad and I’ll have it, you know, just cycling through pictures as I’m talking about food in East Texas. And so I started cycling through stuff and I
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started looking at h how do I describe East Texas cuisine?
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Because a lot of my Dallas chef friends from what I come up with, you know, they’re like, “What is it?” you know, and said that’s kind of like soul food meets
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cinjun but not, you know, and uh the closest comparison that I could find was uh Low Country in in in South
35:56
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Carolina. And I was kind of like, why, you know, like that doesn’t make sense. It’s it’s it’s a little bit different. You know, they’re a little heavier on the coastal seafood. We’re a little heavier on beef.
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Uh we kind of we do we do rice. Um grits are a lot more prevalent than rice. Um,
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but it’s so similar, you know, and I was like, why? And then I started reading into kind of the two foods. And then I’m like, what connected the two places?
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And then, um, it was the river, man. It was the river and it was the bayou and it was slave ships that went from Charleston, South Carolina into New
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Orleans and then paddle wheelers that went up the Mississippi up the Red River into Nacadich which was the you know
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furthermost western hub of uh the enslavement of African people. And then there was a very far inland western port
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in the port town of Jefferson which is not far from here and in Shreport.
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And uh so I was like there it is, you know, it this this is the food of enslaved African people, you know, and
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and that’s where it came from. And I really started digging into that and I and I started looking for stories and looking for more connections and and the
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connections of the food, you know. So I went back and I I watched a couple old episodes that I had remembered. Uh the mind of a chef, you know, Anthony
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Bourdain’s produced show that he did for PBS years ago. incredibly good series, you know, but there was I think it was season two with Shawn Brock and um he’s
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out with uh uh Glenn Roberts at Anen Mills and John Koendall who’s like the seed expert and uh seed historian and
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37 minutes, 36 seconds
you know and they’re talking about the origin of all these foods that we eat.
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You know, for them it was the low country, but for us it was the same thing, the okra, the peas, you know, the uh the collards, the jams, the every
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single thing. And then so I started real, you know, reading how did the food travel, you know, and that’s where the seeds name came from is it was all about the seed. I wanted to find the seeds, right?
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And I discovered these stories of people that are being stripped from their homes and this [ __ ] chokes me up, you know, but uh
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they would braid the seeds into their hair. Yeah. You know, like uh imagine that being the one thing that you grab.
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Yeah. Is that seed, you know? Uh they’re coming to get you.
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you know what am I going to get? You know, [ __ ] I’m getting a gun, man.
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Like, screw this. You know, but uh imagine that being your people’s identity to the point of
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if you had one thing to grab, it would be your family’s seeds and they made it all the way here. You know,
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38 minutes, 34 seconds
it’s deep. No, it’s it’s a it’s a very it’s very deep and it is. But it but that that’s what
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became the story and that’s what really kind of sparked this this this conversation that um you
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38 minutes, 50 seconds
know I really want to have to people. It needs it needs to happen. It needs to be not addressed but just recognized and
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respected and uh Yeah. And it’s honored and it’s it’s so it’s so vastly different than I’m sure than how you
39:06
39 minutes, 6 seconds
grew up knowing these things and what you were taught and just the the surrounding areas like these things were never
39:13
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addressed. Um, I’m sure. Um, how did you know your inner sanctum, your inner circle, your wife, your team, how did they handle the switch?
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And they did it did it did it work right away?
39:26
39 minutes, 26 seconds
Was this Did it Did you roll right into There was no choice. Yeah, there man. Uh, we we did the switch and uh I
39:34
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wish I wish I could just get uh Dylan, my sous chef, on the phone right now.
39:39
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Um, yeah, the switch, man. It was uh we switched on a Friday, which was probably not a good idea, but you know, I’m not
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known for my epic decisions. Um yeah, th Friday afternoon after lunch
39:52
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service, the sign people came in with their razors and stripped all the old stickers off the glass and put up the new ones.
40:00
40 minutes
Um all the QR codes came off the tables and you know, and did you did you even make an announcement or you just did it?
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, I didn’t announce when we were going to do it, but it was coming. Okay. Yeah. The people knew it was coming.
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They just didn’t know when we were going to drop it. Okay.
40:15
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And uh so it was just one Friday. I’m like, “All right, we’re doing it.” And they’re like, “What?” I’m like, “Yeah, we’re doing it.” You know, it’s like we we were prepped up, you know, it it was
40:24
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it was good, but nobody knew how to cook anything, you know? It’s uh Yeah.
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40 minutes, 27 seconds
which is like I said, it’s kind of just my trial by fire way of doing things. I was like, “All right, it’s live, man.” Like uh so every time a new dish would
40:36
40 minutes, 36 seconds
come in, I would go over there and be like, “All right, we’re going to do this, this, this, this, this, this. No, not this one. We’re going to cook this way and you know, plating it up. It’s
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like it’s three or four or five different ways until you figure it out.
40:47
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All right, this is how this is, you know, and it’s a but it’s just super organic like that. It was a riot. So much fun.” No, no, that that is that is fun. That
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is fun. as as a chef, as a ve as a veteran, as a southerner, how do you define belonging through food?
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You didn’t know it was going to be You know some deep questions, huh? You No, that’s that’s a good one. Uh like finding your belonging. I mean, it’s it’s one of those things.
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It’s it you have to have reached a point in your life where you can be honest with yourself, you know, and you really have to look past
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41 minutes, 31 seconds
the the the traditional execution and the the minutia of detail that goes into everything. And you have to go with your heart, you know, you have to go with
41:40
41 minutes, 40 seconds
your memories. And uh it one of the things that we did, one of one of the kind of newer dishes is I do
41:48
41 minutes, 48 seconds
this uh it’s called CN D on the menu and it’s uh it’s ricotta dumpling. Um and then it’s like you know just like your regular chicken and
41:56
41 minutes, 56 seconds
dumplings mix, local chicken and mirror and um you know like blue and all that.
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42 minutes, 3 seconds
But, you know, when mama made that, you know, it’s like it was boiling chicken in water, put in a scoop of flour, and you know, she’s making dumplings by
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42 minutes, 12 seconds
hand, and the and the veggies in there were always undercooked, you know, like that’s just grandma’s chicken and dumplings. Like, you know, when you eat it, it’s going to be like
42:20
42 minutes, 20 seconds
crunch crunch crunch crunch. You know, like that onions undercooked, you know?
42:24
42 minutes, 24 seconds
And I remember the first time that we ever made it, I looked at Dylan was on pants and I looked at Dylan and I go, “Undercook the veg.”
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42 minutes, 31 seconds
Yeah. And he’s like, “What?” I go, “Undercook the veg?” I’m like, “Just, you know, we’re not going for soft.
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We’re going for a little translucent like they need to be done, but undercook them. Nothing more.” Yeah.
42:43
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And so he undercooked them and we ate it. And every single one of us like this is it.
42:48
42 minutes, 48 seconds
That’s it. You know, and I think I think to answer your question, it’s kind of being able to do things like that. like like you know that it’s not necessarily
42:56
42 minutes, 56 seconds
the right way, but it’s in invoking that that emotional response, that ratatouille moment, you know, where the food writer goes,
43:04
43 minutes, 4 seconds
well, no, no. So, somebody’s a little kid in the window.
43:07
43 minutes, 7 seconds
It’s it’s a lot like it’s it’s I liken it to music, right? So, there’s there’s a lot of times in in jazz where the
43:15
43 minutes, 15 seconds
notes of the chords are actually not right. They’re off, they’re sharp, right? Or whatever the case may be, but it’s more about the feeling. So we’re
43:23
43 minutes, 23 seconds
going for feeling not less about being technically sound. Um everybody can you know can play notes right but can you evoke
43:33
43 minutes, 33 seconds
feeling and that emotional connection to food and music are just that like when you have that that is the secret sauce if
43:42
43 minutes, 42 seconds
you can connect I think so. Yeah.
43:44
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It sounds cliche but I mean it is that secret sauce is is is love. It’s emotion. It is it’s it’s it’s sharing uh your memory
43:53
43 minutes, 53 seconds
with others through this medium that is beautiful and delicious, you know, like uh I’m like, “Oh my god, did I just quote
44:00
44 minutes
uh Fancy Chef?” Beautiful and delicious. Beautiful. Beautiful and delicious. Beautiful and delicious. He’s going to sue me. Yes. Yes. Beautiful and delicious.
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44 minutes, 8 seconds
That’s hilarious. Um Oh my god.
44:15
44 minutes, 15 seconds
Oh, Brent’s never gonna let me live that one down.
44:17
44 minutes, 17 seconds
No, no, no. Brent. Yeah, Brent’s going to be all over you for that. Um, let’s talk Texas bucket list because I’m going to do something. I’m gonna do something
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44 minutes, 25 seconds
because I I know a guy like you is is not too high on on on on too much of this. So, I’m gonna I’m going to do it for you.
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44 minutes, 34 seconds
All right. So, best bite of the season, which is not a small feat.
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Uh, yeah, that was cool. That’s so cool.
44:43
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That was That’s so cool.
44:44
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Yeah, it was it was fun, man. Like that was uh it was a shock, you know. I never thought I mean I never thought that that we’d you know
44:53
44 minutes, 53 seconds
take the whole thing, you know. It’s what was the secret of that dish? Was it was it was it love? Was it smoke or pure? Was it something pork chop?
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45 minutes, 1 second
I know. But but again, so being just a a a pork chop, you know,
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45 minutes, 8 seconds
there’s I think first off, my in my belief a lot of most of the best things that we’ve ever eaten and you just said this
45:16
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earlier are the simplest and it’s just it’s just a little bit of actually a lot of it know and the fact of you’re going
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45 minutes, 26 seconds
for these emotional grabbing, you know, uh responses. So, right, what what was that? You know, what was that?
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The whole the whole dish is a story from uh some farmer friends of ours, you know, and it’s we were out there look
45:43
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looking at pigs. Uh it was for we were getting ready for Koshan 555, which is, you know, the crowning achievement of my life still to this day is it’s got to be the thing I’m most proud
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of. But we were out there looking at the Kosan pig and making some plans for that. and they’re in this little town called Crockett, which is a little way south of here.
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Green canopy. It’s kind of on the edge of the big thicket. So, you have not all the pines like we have here, a few, but you know, big oak trees and um
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46 minutes, 11 seconds
undergrowth and the pigs are out there just running around, you know, and it’s kind of uh when I was doing that pork chop dish, and that was just the pork chop dish off
46:18
46 minutes, 18 seconds
my menu. I didn’t do anything special for them or, you know, it’s just like what I make everybody else, right? And uh so I mean I did harissa on
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46 minutes, 27 seconds
the plate um which is you know like this I did this like Texasized version of of you know this North African red pepper paste. So it’s
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46 minutes, 36 seconds
a little spicy, it’s a little smoky, but um the red dirt, you know, was the carissa and then the the the chop was the pig laying in the dirt and then the
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46 minutes, 44 seconds
the baby mustard greens are like the little undergrowth canopy. The charred green onions are just like the trees and
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46 minutes, 51 seconds
the branches. And then I I I think what really makes that chop, and I will credit this one to my wife, uh Bailey, uh whom through all things are possible.
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Um when we were first tried that dish, she’s like, “It’s missing something.” I’m like, “I know it’s missing something. I don’t know what it is.” And
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47 minutes, 11 seconds
she goes, “Fennel.” And uh and and I was like, “Fennel?
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47 minutes, 14 seconds
Yeah.” I’m like, “Fennel pollen.” You know, like grab it and and that’s you can see that dust on there. It’s that finel pollen. Final pollen gives you the smell of that forest. Yeah.
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47 minutes, 22 seconds
You know, so it’s like when you eat it, it’s it’s it’s really it’s the most composed like uncomposed. It’s the most
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complicated just Yeah. And and that’s that’s where it was. That’s that’s Chubby Dog Farm, you know. And I mean, it’s just uh
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it it just turned into into just kind of I don’t want to say a signature dish, but because I hate signature dishes. I hate legacy dishes, but that’s I always I
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will always have a version of that. You understand? You can’t run.
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47 minutes, 53 seconds
Yeah. Like right now it’s a dry-aged pork porter house uh plated up a little differently. It’s got some some actual like uh
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48 minutes, 1 second
fire roasted finel next to it and you know it but there’s always some sort of iteration of it. You can’t you can’t run
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from signature legacy dishes. You know there there’s no way around it. There’s this everybody has, you know, there’s a thing.
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48 minutes, 16 seconds
Okay, since you already mentioned it, let’s talk about uh the coach 555 that, you know, Prince of Pork
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uh is is that’s a another huge deal. Um and I’m the last one. Look at that.
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48 minutes, 28 seconds
Like that’s uh because uh you know, COVID killed it.
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48 minutes, 32 seconds
That was that was the end of Kosan 555 and uh restaurant had been open six months, man. That’s me breaking down the Koshan pig. Yeah.
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48 minutes, 39 seconds
The uh the Kosan. So that that that you know it’s a beautiful beautiful port to work with.
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48 minutes, 47 seconds
Yeah, that that that pig was a red waddle in Mangalita across by uh Chubby Dog Farms, Karen and Calvin.
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48 minutes, 53 seconds
Uh the farmers uh amazing people uh amazing pork, you know, and and for the people out there, speak to them.
49:00
49 minutes
Tell them what Tell them what tell them what Koshan pork is. Yeah, Koshan was this like traveling I think they did nine different cities
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49 minutes, 8 seconds
um throughout the US and it was five chefs at each stop and each one of you gets uh 200lb pig uh from a local farm and you have to
49:16
49 minutes, 16 seconds
create I think it was six different dishes for the judges then you had to have at least two to feed I think it’s
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49 minutes, 23 seconds
like 6 to 800 people that attended um and you can do extra stuff if you want you know but uh but yeah I mean it’s just nose to tail
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49 minutes, 31 seconds
you know so we were utilizing everything. I made like katsubushi out of the heart, you know, like salt box cured it and then dehydrated it and was
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49 minutes, 38 seconds
grating it over stuff like with a microplane and um made a made a relish out of the pig head. Um,
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49 minutes, 46 seconds
we were just do, you know, uh, I did, uh, Haml Percier, uh, jalapeno corn dogs, you know, that, you know, I’ll
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49 minutes, 54 seconds
never forget after I won, you know, it’s like, uh, John Tissar, who’s the legendary chef of Knife, and, you know, of course, you know, Top Chef. Yeah.
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50 minutes, 1 second
And Anthony Bourdain’s old chef back in the day. He’s the one that, I believe, gave him the name Flaco. But, uh, I just remember he texts me and he’s he
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50 minutes, 10 seconds
he’s just like, “Congratulations, chef.” And then he goes, “That corn dog, you know, by the way, listen, that the
50:17
50 minutes, 17 seconds
the corn dog is Yeah. But I mean that that competition was so special to me because, you know, I’d been in the Dallas scene. Dallas was one of the stops. You know, there’s only
50:25
50 minutes, 25 seconds
45 chefs a year that get to do this in the whole country. Um, and it kind of seemed to me that you got a one and
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done. Like you got a shot and then you didn’t, you know, very few people got a second invite. Usually those people were tied to the facility that it was being
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50 minutes, 40 seconds
held at or whatever. But um when I was at FD33, which is legendary restaurant in Dallas, absolutely my favorite place I’ve ever worked in my life, uh under Matt
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50 minutes, 49 seconds
Mallister, um you know, Food and Wine, best new chef, dope chef. Yeah.
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50 minutes, 53 seconds
Um we we did a prep up for Koshan there. Um and then the next year I had moved on to Machalio, which is uh Chef David Uger.
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Um who’s the chef of Luchia. another kick out and he won it that year and uh so I came in after Koshan had already ended
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51 minutes, 14 seconds
and was helping him prep up for Grand Koshan which is in Chicago where it’s you know the the top nine or you know the nine prince or princesses of port go
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51 minutes, 22 seconds
to compete for you know the uh the title and uh yeah so I mean it’s just Kosan was just always
51:30
51 minutes, 30 seconds
just legendary event and those who knew about it just knew the the gravity behind it and and uh the awareness that
51:38
51 minutes, 38 seconds
it raised for you know uh small farms and nose totail cooking and zero waste and just you know really doing amazing
51:45
51 minutes, 45 seconds
things with beautiful animals and beautiful people. So that was just, you know, like I said, I won that that was I think February of 22 or no, it was 20.
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51 minutes, 56 seconds
Uh, February of 20 because restaurant was about 6 months old. Um, I had already worked myself into the hospital
52:04
52 minutes, 4 seconds
and I just got out of a 4-day kick cuz I put myself into atrial fibrillation because, you know, I was telling you
52:11
52 minutes, 11 seconds
earlier that uh it took me a while to realize that all these people weren’t like me. Yeah. Um, you know,
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52 minutes, 19 seconds
so it’s just, you know, but my blood pressure was always up and I was just always like, ah, you know, just stressed out. Yeah. Let’s let’s sprinkle a little now.
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52 minutes, 27 seconds
Yeah.
52:27
52 minutes, 27 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. Little final poll. Like it’s uh Yeah. But now I had to go to the hospital. They put the patches on me.
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They they shock you. Like I I always tell everybody I’m like they hit control altdelete.
52:40
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And uh you know they hit control altdelete reset my heart. Um, 2 days later I think we had to move like
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52 minutes, 48 seconds
Yeah, we were moving houses and then like the weekend after that was Koshan.
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52 minutes, 51 seconds
M and then the week after that was the day that my Chopped episode aired. So, it was like a crazy Oh, wow. You had Yeah, that’s a couple of weeks, man. Like it was just
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52 minutes, 59 seconds
it was wild. And uh um I remember there was a a magazine interview that I did a
53:06
53 minutes, 6 seconds
year or two ago and and the guy was like the way he wrote it, it was so like oh man it was like uh like an idiocracy
53:14
53 minutes, 14 seconds
narrator, you know, it’s like you know after this win and that win and this event, you know, Chef Lance looked to his wife Bailey and said, “Babe, I think
53:22
53 minutes, 22 seconds
this is going to be our year.” And it’s like dot dot dot dot. It was not their year.
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53 minutes, 30 seconds
You know, it’s like right then co hits everything shuts down. It goes crazy and then it was like kind of like we had
53:38
53 minutes, 38 seconds
this rapid like 6 8 months of growth and then just our knees got just cut right out from under us. It was a wild wild time.
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53 minutes, 47 seconds
That’s insane. What would you say for for our listeners out there and people watching um that you know what would be
53:54
53 minutes, 54 seconds
some tips for the novice home cook to to cook pork? I mean, because pork is one of those things that uh again, we
54:03
54 minutes, 3 seconds
dealing with so many different parts of the pig. They all cook differently. They all have different applications. Oh, yeah. Um they all take on flavor
54:10
54 minutes, 10 seconds
profiles differently. What What would be the one thing you can give a tip to our listeners about cooking pork?
54:18
54 minutes, 18 seconds
Start with really good pork. Um with with with pork, I mean, like genetics are everything. If you’ve got to buy um
54:26
54 minutes, 26 seconds
like commercial big box, you know, from a from a store or whatever, find something like, you know, and they don’t pay me a dime to sell it, you know, but
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54 minutes, 35 seconds
like like a compart like a like a compart Durac, which is a heritage breed, and you know, it’s like it’s raised and it’s still commercial scale, but it’s
54:43
54 minutes, 43 seconds
like they actually put in some steps to make it not quite so uh vile as the commercial meat program in America, which just grosses me out.
54:52
54 minutes, 52 seconds
Mh.
54:52
54 minutes, 52 seconds
Uh but but you know, start with really good pork and look at it. It should have that color that looks good to eat. It shouldn’t be pale and you know, it
55:00
55 minutes
shouldn’t be the other white meat. It should be the other red meat, you know.
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55 minutes, 2 seconds
It’s uh should have some fat into it, you know.
55:05
55 minutes, 5 seconds
And then outside of that, it’s just keep it really simple, man. I mean, it’s like when when I cook proteins, and that’s what everybody always says. What do you put on this pork chop? Salt and pepper.
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55 minutes, 15 seconds
That’s it. I literally just put salt and pepper on it. That’s all. Then it’s pan seared, you know, and and just keep it really simple. Don’t overcook it.
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55 minutes, 23 seconds
Um, don’t look at the, you know, you know, the USDA, I think they say medium is like 155. You
55:30
55 minutes, 30 seconds
know, they say mid rare is like 128 or something. I’m just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It’s kind of like the food pyramid. It’s like, man, I
55:38
55 minutes, 38 seconds
feel like you guys are screwing with us again. Absolutely.
55:41
55 minutes, 41 seconds
But yeah, don’t overcook it. Use really good pork. Yeah. Yeah, good, good, great point.
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55 minutes, 45 seconds
Great point. All right. You and you, you spoke about your wife, Bailey. Let’s first off who is a a force on her own.
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She’s she’s culinary badass on her own.
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55 minutes, 57 seconds
Um what is it like you know running a business you know with your partner and and having someone and you already said
56:04
56 minutes, 4 seconds
that uh she had she you know dialed in the key ingredient for that for that pork chop.
56:09
56 minutes, 9 seconds
How is that, you know, having, you know, a bonafide teammate to do these things with?
56:18
56 minutes, 18 seconds
Um, you know, Ba, like I said, Bailey, Baileyy’s incredible. You said she’s forced to be reckoned with on her own.
56:24
56 minutes, 24 seconds
She’s one of the very few widely recognized, you know, female pit masters in Texas barbecue. Uh, she helmed a couple different barbecue joints, worked
56:30
56 minutes, 30 seconds
on some Texas Monthly top 50 joints. Now she just does pop-ups from time to time, you know, and that’s just kind of her vibe. She’s a dog mom. Mhm.
56:38
56 minutes, 38 seconds
and does barbecue pop-ups from from time to time. But, uh, you know, working together and and this is one of those
56:45
56 minutes, 45 seconds
things that it’s that it’s like it’s really tough to do, you know, and it’s something that I really wanted to do uh
56:53
56 minutes, 53 seconds
was to, you know, be able to work together and we did for a long time. And then it then it’s kind of like at some
57:00
57 minutes
point you kind of hit that point where it goes one way or the other and and you have to be really honest with yourself about well can we work together, you know, and and and in in
57:08
57 minutes, 8 seconds
our case it’s it’s we work together when we’re when we’re eating, when we’re tasting food, when we’re talking about food, when we’re cooking at home, we’re exploring flavors and we’re doing things like that.
57:18
57 minutes, 18 seconds
But when it comes to the line, it’s like it’s it’s it’s my show, you know, like it’s uh um and that’s that’s a really
57:25
57 minutes, 25 seconds
tough one to get past, you It’s like in as much as I wanted to, you know, it it wound up not uh being an on the line
57:32
57 minutes, 32 seconds
thing, but more of a, you know, that supportive and uh um that constant sense of of of guidance and uh
57:42
57 minutes, 42 seconds
and the ear and and you know, she comes from the scene, so she understands.
57:45
57 minutes, 45 seconds
You got to have your you got to find out what works for you guys like and so but but she’s she’s incredible. And I mean, like I said, all things are
57:52
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possible through Bailey. that is I couldn’t do a damn thing in this world if it wasn’t for her. And uh you know we’re coming up on our 8th uh wedding anniversary which will be Halloween.
58:03
58 minutes, 3 seconds
There you go. Congratulations on that.
58:05
58 minutes, 5 seconds
Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah, that’s that’s it’s amazing. It’s and it really is um you know first off two alphas bad
58:13
58 minutes, 13 seconds
situation. You know it can for sure bad situation.
58:19
58 minutes, 19 seconds
So you got to understand where to draw the line. the line in the sand is the line is literally the line. So, uh that’s that that’s nothing wrong with
58:27
58 minutes, 27 seconds
that at all. Um when people talk about East Texas food and the food scene in 10
58:34
58 minutes, 34 seconds
years from now, how do you want them to speak or remember heritage?
58:43
58 minutes, 43 seconds
I think just being the first guy to speak up for it, you know, like it’s uh kind of having that that that voice of
58:50
58 minutes, 50 seconds
of where it comes from and and just being the first guy to say, “Hey, this is a real thing.” You know, it’s uh because it is it’s a very distinct
58:58
58 minutes, 58 seconds
cuisine. It’s a very distinct type of food and flavors and you know, it’s familiar to a lot, but it’s you know, it’s it’s different and
59:05
59 minutes, 5 seconds
it’s I think it will grow and and that’s kind of one of the things, you know, opening up in Tyler was
59:13
59 minutes, 13 seconds
I wanted to bring something out here that was different, you know. I wanted to bring something out here that was kind of big cityish but still like home, you know, and uh now that it’s grown
59:22
59 minutes, 22 seconds
into that, I’d like to inspire more people to come out here, you know, and that’s uh Oh, I’m coming. I’m coming.
59:28
59 minutes, 28 seconds
Yeah, come on. You know, but I mean I mean I mean I mean like chefs to open up, you know, like it’s Yeah, I’m coming.
59:35
59 minutes, 35 seconds
Yeah. I mean it’s it’s a killer city and it’s like I’m the only chef driven place in town.
59:39
59 minutes, 39 seconds
Yeah. It’s I mean there there’s there’s a a lot of restaurants, you know, but most of them are, you know, owner operator or KMs and things like that, right?
59:47
59 minutes, 47 seconds
Um a handful of of of you know, bonafide chefs, but uh as far as chef driven, yeah,
59:55
59 minutes, 55 seconds
we’re it, you know, and these people, they love it, you know, and and the economy here is vibrant. It’s rooted in education and and medicine and oil and
1:00:04
1 hour, 4 seconds
gas and legal. And I mean, there’s a lot of money here. There’s a lot of people that know how to eat and and I want competition, you know. It’s
1:00:12
1 hour, 12 seconds
like I want I want to have a place to go eat.
1:00:16
1 hour, 16 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly that, too, you know. Or or just collab and do stuff together. And uh I I I think that just
1:00:24
1 hour, 24 seconds
I want them to to to kind of maybe remember me as the one that said, “Hey, it’s viable here.” Gotcha.
1:00:31
1 hour, 31 seconds
And inspired people to come out and and throw their hat in the ring, too.
1:00:34
1 hour, 34 seconds
That’s That’s dope. You’ve you’ve mentored veterans, young cooks, you know, all the alike. What is the one
1:00:43
1 hour, 43 seconds
thing that you hope they take from your journey and then your journey together?
1:00:52
1 hour, 52 seconds
I I hope that they don’t follow my journey. It’s been very hard. It’s been very difficult. It’s been uh
1:01:00
1 hour, 1 minute
I I’m very open about my mistakes. I’m very open about my shortcomings. I’m very open about, you know, my mental health issues.
1:01:08
1 hour, 1 minute, 8 seconds
Um I I chase peace. Yeah.
1:01:12
1 hour, 1 minute, 12 seconds
A lot, you know, and that’s uh so I I I think if if I want to push them in any sort of direction, it’s to be a positive
1:01:20
1 hour, 1 minute, 20 seconds
force, you know. It’s to be um to be calm, you know. Um
1:01:28
1 hour, 1 minute, 28 seconds
and uh just cook with respect and cook with identity, you know. honor honor your ancestors, but honor the rest of the
1:01:36
1 hour, 1 minute, 36 seconds
ancestors that were around back then, too. You know, it’s uh it’s being open to I want to teach them to be open and and
1:01:47
1 hour, 1 minute, 47 seconds
that doesn’t sound right, but it’s but it’s kind of like uh I want them to look at look at each other without a sense of competition. I want them to look, you know, the the guys and gals in my line.
1:01:56
1 hour, 1 minute, 56 seconds
want to I want them to interact and grow together and and become like you know
1:02:04
1 hour, 2 minutes, 4 seconds
no that sense of team I mean great you know yeah sense of team I I want I want to leave this you know I’m 53 years old now you know it’s like
1:02:12
1 hour, 2 minutes, 12 seconds
uh I was crippled when I started on this line you know and it’s uh I’m not getting younger and it’s not
1:02:19
1 hour, 2 minutes, 19 seconds
hurting less when I get out of bed every morning or when I’m done at Saturday night and you know right it. I’m not getting any younger. I I I
1:02:28
1 hour, 2 minutes, 28 seconds
would like to if if I could leave maybe one legacy to the culinary world when it’s time for me to leave, and it’s not
1:02:35
1 hour, 2 minutes, 35 seconds
yet, but uh it’s figuring out a way to enable all of your cooks to be
1:02:43
1 hour, 2 minutes, 43 seconds
in business, you know, like cuz a lot of people don’t have the opportunity to to hang their shingle, never have the money.
1:02:51
1 hour, 2 minutes, 51 seconds
Um I had $25,000 when I opened Culture.
1:02:54
1 hour, 2 minutes, 54 seconds
It was it was a lockout restaurant. It was a pizza joint. Uh little red sauce joint. And so it had tables. It had chairs. It had some pots and pans. It
1:03:02
1 hour, 3 minutes, 2 seconds
had a stove. It had that big stupid pizza oven in it that I hate.
1:03:06
1 hour, 3 minutes, 6 seconds
Uh but I can’t get it out of there. If anybody wants a pizza oven, like for real, come get it. Like bring me a few things. You got to forklift it from the street.
1:03:14
1 hour, 3 minutes, 14 seconds
That’s all. You got to pull the glass out the wall. But, uh, you know, so I I
1:03:21
1 hour, 3 minutes, 21 seconds
had 25,000 cash. The day we opened, I had $92 left in the checking account.
1:03:27
1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds
92. You know, don’t do it that way. You know, it’s like I don’t I don’t know how many people could have could have survived.
1:03:35
1 hour, 3 minutes, 35 seconds
Yeah.
1:03:36
1 hour, 3 minutes, 36 seconds
That lack of a business model. It was just like a, you know, macaroni. And your journey. Your journey is your journey, though. and and
1:03:44
1 hour, 3 minutes, 44 seconds
but I would love to figure out a way to turn that into a some sort of business model to where I could put them in in charge and give
1:03:53
1 hour, 3 minutes, 53 seconds
them all ownership of the place and Yeah. Okay. So, speaking on that, what what is what’s next? Is it is it
1:04:01
1 hour, 4 minutes, 1 second
expansion? Is it is it storytelling about the experience or are you truly looking to, you know, pass the proverbial torch to to the next in line?
1:04:14
1 hour, 4 minutes, 14 seconds
I I’ve still got I’ve still got a few years left in me, you know. So, it’s uh we’re actively working on opening another restaurant. It’s called Trisoro,
1:04:23
1 hour, 4 minutes, 23 seconds
which is like just kind of a mashup play on uh the French and Spanish and Italian ways of saying treasure.
1:04:30
1 hour, 4 minutes, 30 seconds
um kind of this Middle Eastern Mediterranean vibed restaurant that uh it’s going to it’s going to allow me to
1:04:38
1 hour, 4 minutes, 38 seconds
get that that Mediterranean fix that I came from, you know, living in the Middle East like I did. It’ll be, you know, that kind of very Middle Eastern centric with,
1:04:47
1 hour, 4 minutes, 47 seconds
right, a little dash of this, a little dash of that, you know, and you also creating your own competition. You said there’s nothing out here. I’ll make I’ll make it, you know, and and well, and remember
1:04:56
1 hour, 4 minutes, 56 seconds
I I told you about uh Chef Sydney, who is my first, you know, like exec exec who pulled me out and made me stay in
1:05:04
1 hour, 5 minutes, 4 seconds
this uh career path. She’s going to be the general manager of it. Very cool.
1:05:10
1 hour, 5 minutes, 10 seconds
And uh my old sue chef who I introduced to her and they are now married. Um,
1:05:16
1 hour, 5 minutes, 16 seconds
Maddie, um, he was my sue chef and he he worked with me three different restaurants coming up
1:05:24
1 hour, 5 minutes, 24 seconds
and, uh, he’s going to be the, uh, the CDC of it. So, it’s it’s kind of we’re keeping that in the family and that’s kind of the same deal. It’s like, I want to get that I want to get it up. I want to get it going.
1:05:33
1 hour, 5 minutes, 33 seconds
Yeah.
1:05:34
1 hour, 5 minutes, 34 seconds
Um, get it rocking and and and and pass it on. Like it’s, you know, I’m in a position to where I can open that place.
1:05:40
1 hour, 5 minutes, 40 seconds
They may never be in that position to open that place. So, what what greater gift could I possibly do for the person
1:05:48
1 hour, 5 minutes, 48 seconds
that not only kept me in this business, but kept me alive, right, than try and get them in there and get them set up and uh and and and and pass it on and give them that ownership.
1:05:58
1 hour, 5 minutes, 58 seconds
I mean, it’s it’s also one of those things like, man, you better be careful what you wish for, you know, like because when it’s yours, it’s it’s a
1:06:05
1 hour, 6 minutes, 5 seconds
whole different thing, you know? But uh but I think that there’s so many people that I I think that happens more than
1:06:13
1 hour, 6 minutes, 13 seconds
the industry says it does. You know, I feel like, you know, uh there there’s quite a few restaurants that have that have come from that and and
1:06:20
1 hour, 6 minutes, 20 seconds
they’re multigenerational, not in a nepotistic way, but in a professional way where where it’s like you find those one or two or three of your employees
1:06:30
1 hour, 6 minutes, 30 seconds
and and it it moves on to them and it continues on. And uh I I think it does happen, you know. It’s just you don’t hear about it a lot.
1:06:38
1 hour, 6 minutes, 38 seconds
Yeah. No, that’s very cool. Very cool.
1:06:40
1 hour, 6 minutes, 40 seconds
All right, before I let you go, going to play a little game. It’s the lightning round. All right, lightning.
1:06:50
1 hour, 6 minutes, 50 seconds
Okay, this one’s pretty simple. I’m just going to give you, you know, uh ask a question or say a phrase and you just tell me the first thing that pops to your mind. All right, no pressure.
1:07:00
1 hour, 7 minutes
Let’s do it. All right. Biscuits or cornbread? Cornbread.
1:07:10
1 hour, 7 minutes, 10 seconds
I hate you.
1:07:13
1 hour, 7 minutes, 13 seconds
You said cornbread. Everybody heard right for sure. Okay. All right. Good. Whiskey neat or on the rocks? Rocks.
1:07:21
1 hour, 7 minutes, 21 seconds
Cool. Big rock.
1:07:22
1 hour, 7 minutes, 22 seconds
Large format. Exactly. There we go. Big rock. Dream collab chef. Dead or alive?
1:07:29
1 hour, 7 minutes, 29 seconds
God. This this would this one will weird you out. BJ Dennis. Damn.
1:07:34
1 hour, 7 minutes, 34 seconds
Yeah. One of my all-time favorites. Just I I really want to cook and just hang out and talk with that guy.
1:07:39
1 hour, 7 minutes, 39 seconds
Oh, yeah. I would I would love that would be amazing. Yeah. Be dope. Yeah. Film it all. Yeah. For real.
1:07:47
1 hour, 7 minutes, 47 seconds
Okay. One ingredient you’ll never compromise on.
1:07:55
1 hour, 7 minutes, 55 seconds
God, I’m trying to think of um let’s go with butter.
1:08:01
1 hour, 8 minutes, 1 second
Butter sucks. Butter goes with everything. Yeah, cheap butter does suck.
1:08:05
1 hour, 8 minutes, 5 seconds
All butter is not created equal. That’s That’s a fact.
1:08:08
1 hour, 8 minutes, 8 seconds
Yeah. Spend money on your butter, people. Absolutely. Absolutely. Biggest pet peeve in the kitchen.
1:08:15
1 hour, 8 minutes, 15 seconds
I forgot. Oh, that’s a good one.
1:08:24
1 hour, 8 minutes, 24 seconds
Or or or my favorite employee, Noah. Noah body.
1:08:28
1 hour, 8 minutes, 28 seconds
Yeah. No, who did this? Nobody wasn’t me. Not me. Not me. Oh, old Noah. Yeah. Oh, Noah. Good old Noah. Okay.
1:08:37
1 hour, 8 minutes, 37 seconds
Smell that reminds you of home. Oh, tomato plants.
1:08:48
1 hour, 8 minutes, 48 seconds
M okay.
1:08:50
1 hour, 8 minutes, 50 seconds
My great uncle was really famous for growing his tomatoes and the ochre was there, but they didn’t smell like the tomato plants. Like as a kid, I can remember the the the just that pungent
1:08:58
1 hour, 8 minutes, 58 seconds
smell of tomato plants and the and the flowers and the just Yeah. It was just a cool smell.
1:09:03
1 hour, 9 minutes, 3 seconds
Very cool. Very cool. Okay, finish this sentence.
1:09:08
1 hour, 9 minutes, 8 seconds
Food is everything. There you go. There you go.
1:09:15
1 hour, 9 minutes, 15 seconds
Okay, tell everyone out there who can hear the sound of your voice or see your magnificent face where they can follow
1:09:25
1 hour, 9 minutes, 25 seconds
you, what you got going on, how to keep in contact in touch with all the things you got going.
1:09:33
1 hour, 9 minutes, 33 seconds
Yeah, the uh and and and please reach out because I run all of our own social media and everything like that. So, the restaurant is Heritage East. Uh, if you
1:09:40
1 hour, 9 minutes, 40 seconds
look it up on Instas and Facebook, I think it’s heritage East. Uh, if you punch in Chef Lance McQuarter at Chef
1:09:48
1 hour, 9 minutes, 48 seconds
Lance McQuarter, you punch in Lance McQuarter, you’ll probably find a few pages of me, but there’s a fishing page and a cooking page. And, uh, Plaid Rabbit, you can find that one.
1:09:57
1 hour, 9 minutes, 57 seconds
Heritage.com is the website. Uh, we’re working on uh, my personal website, which will just lance mcquarter.com.
1:10:05
1 hour, 10 minutes, 5 seconds
That’ll be linked through the Heritage page, and that’s going to be where I’m going to be writing a lot more. like I’ve really I’ve really felt in love with writing and research and um you
1:10:14
1 hour, 10 minutes, 14 seconds
know like I said the the seeds project is just something that I really want to continue on um and hopefully have the chance to do some kind of Q&A
1:10:23
1 hour, 10 minutes, 23 seconds
uh sit down dinners with some you know prominent southern African-American chefs and and you know maybe we cook
1:10:30
1 hour, 10 minutes, 30 seconds
some food of our grandmothers and uh talk about how similar they are and talk about overcoming the divide that’s been put between us and those meals. all
1:10:39
1 hour, 10 minutes, 39 seconds
these years and and so keep an eye on keep an eye on the website because that’s that’s what we’re working on right now is some some you’ll be able to
1:10:46
1 hour, 10 minutes, 46 seconds
read some of my stuff and awesome and yeah cuz it’s the writing is it’s been a really cool release you know
1:10:54
1 hour, 10 minutes, 54 seconds
it’s been a really cool way to get thoughts out of my head that I usually have a tough time doing and I just want a world that everybody loves each other
1:11:02
1 hour, 11 minutes, 2 seconds
and you know that’s that’s I guess the older you get the more you know uh yeah no I mean well that way.
1:11:09
1 hour, 11 minutes, 9 seconds
You’re just you’re just continuing um in a in a different form what you what you’re already doing. So
1:11:16
1 hour, 11 minutes, 16 seconds
um you know food is the the ultimate unifier, you know, along with music as well. And so documenting it,
1:11:24
1 hour, 11 minutes, 24 seconds
you know, the words will last longer than the plate, right? Or or or either one of us.
1:11:29
1 hour, 11 minutes, 29 seconds
Exactly. It will outlive it will outlive us all. And so that to me is is an important uh facet of storytelling. And that those are those are the new seeds.
1:11:40
1 hour, 11 minutes, 40 seconds
Yeah.
1:11:42
1 hour, 11 minutes, 42 seconds
And I mean that’s you know that that’s where it starts. That’s where it ends.
1:11:45
1 hour, 11 minutes, 45 seconds
That’s you know the end of a life cycle of a plant. The seeds drop you know and it’s and it’s a whole new batch. So absolutely.
1:11:51
1 hour, 11 minutes, 51 seconds
Um just be good to each other people and get out there and love each other. You know it’s like everything that’s that’s different between you and me is
1:11:58
1 hour, 11 minutes, 58 seconds
[ __ ] You know, I mean, it’s just like we’re we’re all human beings, you know, meat suits, skeletons flying
1:12:06
1 hour, 12 minutes, 6 seconds
through space, you know? It’s it’s like it’s not that serious. Like like chill out, love each other, sit down, eat some food, and like I said in seeds, you
1:12:13
1 hour, 12 minutes, 13 seconds
know, if uh if if if the healing has it has to start somewhere, let it be at my table, you know? Absolutely. Or yours.
1:12:20
1 hour, 12 minutes, 20 seconds
Absolutely. Again, thank you so much for for being here. Um uh we’re going to talk. We got so much stuff to do. so
1:12:27
1 hour, 12 minutes, 27 seconds
much. Uh, and uh, I’m definitely coming to see you for sure. And, um, let’s do it. Yeah, we’ll we’ll cook.
1:12:33
1 hour, 12 minutes, 33 seconds
Yeah. No, no, we know we have the tickets up there, man. It’s a must. It’s a must. It’s a must.
1:12:38
1 hour, 12 minutes, 38 seconds
Again, follow my guy Chef Lance. You need to check out soon as he’s up with this website, you’ll be able to, I’m guessing, read seeds, which is a must.
1:12:49
1 hour, 12 minutes, 49 seconds
Uh, brought me to tears. Uh also uh it made me so much uh fill me with so much
1:12:57
1 hour, 12 minutes, 57 seconds
hope and um I I I genuinely love this guy. He’s a good dude and check him out
1:13:05
1 hour, 13 minutes, 5 seconds
and thank him for being here again. So this has been the Taste Music Hear Food podcast show. I am Ed Porter. Till next time. Peace.